VT commodore camber

paul7v7 · 12-01-2005, 05:41 PM

On the VT/VX model commodores there is a large amount of negative camber on the rear. What I'd like to know is, why is it like that and is it an advantage? I don't see any VY/VZ commodores like this. No Falcons have this either from the factory. I can only assume it isn't good?

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XplosiveR6 · 12-01-2005, 05:46 PM

its actually quite normal, its the crappy irs doing its crappy work

XRated · 12-01-2005, 05:59 PM

I've also always wondered the same thing. It is particularly noticeable when the car is lowered or has a heavy load on the rear.

The younger guys seem to think it looks "phat"!

paul7v7 · 12-01-2005, 06:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by XRated

I've also always wondered the same thing. It is particularly noticeable when the car is lowered or has a heavy load on the rear.

The younger guys seem to think it looks "phat"!

exactly, saw one today which reminded me about the issue. Would a camber kit fix it?

AlbertM · 12-01-2005, 06:36 PM

You can't fix it. It's swing arm suspension. The axle moves in radius to the anchor point.

FNQracing · 12-01-2005, 06:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by paul7v7

On the VT/VX model commodores there is a large amount of negative camber on the rear. What I'd like to know is, why is it like that and is it an advantage? I don't see any VY/VZ commodores like this. No Falcons have this either from the factory. I can only assume it isn't good?

:

A slight advantage in rear end grip and comliance in cornering, yes. However, without correct tyre pressures, the VT/X/Y/Z's tend to chew out the inner edge of the tyre prematurely.

A camber kit is available to alleviate, but not eliminate this "feature".

As inneficient as this design is, I'd prefer it to a live rear end Falcon.

The IRS in the BA (and AU) is FAR superior. Holden have been somewhat complacent in not upgrading the Commodores suspension hardware. You can thank the (lack of) success of AU for that. :hihi:

paul7v7 · 12-01-2005, 06:46 PM

ah ok cool thanks guys for the info.

12 · 12-01-2005, 06:47 PM

It's because of Holden trying to be the first to release IRS on a Australian production car, when they knew Ford were working on a IRS to be released with the AU Falcon late '98. They rushed and released a pre historic design, read Datsun 1600 (actually the Dato 1600 was better), and to this day are trying to "correct" it. Tyre wear on the rear of these cars are twice the rate of a normal family car would be because of the inside edges having to cope with most of the weight of the car. If you've ever seen a VT or VX tow a sizeable boat, you'd almost think the wheels are about to break off, the negative camber would be close to 6-7 degrees, or more.

This is not the first time Holden have tried to release something into the market before Ford. They "try harder" especially when they know Ford has been working on something that they have only just sniffed. Drivers airbag is also another, among many rushed and failed Holden firsts. The R5 ute concept is a good example though. Ford tested the waters with the R5 at the 2000 Sydney motor show. Holden's jaws dropped and they rushed to design and build something similar. The Holden Crewman/Adventra was the result of this eagerness to be the first, and hasn't it been a flop? But only this time, Ford did not put the R5 into production. They came out with something better, The Ford Territory. Took longer to design and build than the Adventra, "the Commodore wagon on stilts", but atleast Ford got it right. Click here for an article on the R5 ute.

FNQracing · 12-01-2005, 07:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AUGZMK

It's because of Holden trying to be the first to release IRS on a Australian production car, when they knew Ford were working on a IRS to be released with the AU Falcon late '98. They rushed and released a pre historic design, read Datsun 1600 (actually the Dato 1600 was better), and to this day are trying to "correct" it. Tyre wear on the rear of these cars are twice the rate of a normal family car would be because of the inside edges having to cope with most of the weight of the car. If you've ever seen a VT or VX tow a sizeable boat, you'd almost think the wheels are about to break off, the negative camber would be close to 6-7 degrees, or more.

This is not the first time Holden have tried to release something into the market before Ford. They "try harder" especially when they know Ford has been working on something that they have only just sniffed. Drivers airbag is also another, among many rushed and failed Holden firsts. The R5 ute concept is a good example though. Ford tested the waters with the R5 at the 2000 Sydney motor show. Holden's jaws dropped and they rushed to design and build something similar. The Holden Crewman/Adventra was the result of this eagerness to be the first, and hasn't it been a flop? But only this time, Ford did not put the R5 into production. They came out with something better, The Ford Territory. Took longer to design and build than the Adventra, "the Commodore wagon on stilts", but atleast Ford got it right. Click here for an article on the R5 ute.

I think you're being a little unfair on Holden. IRS was introduced in the VP Commodore, light years before Ford had even signed off on AU. Hell, Ford are still flogging the Watts Link rear end and leaf spring suspension in 2005, which borders on criminal.

I'm not sure about your comments on the failed Holden airbags, can;t say I'm aware of any major issues there.

To be fair, it has been Holden who have pioneered most of the new features to Aussie passenger cars, including ABS if I am not mistaken, and coil sprung rear suspension, which they introduced in 1972 (HQ). It took Ford another 10 years! (XE)...

However, when Ford do finally get around to doing it, they usually end up doing it better. Which is hardly suprising.

As a counter balance, Ford were the first with OHC and Fuel Injection, plastic fuel tanks and bumpers.

Oh, and how could I forget, they were the first with the mother of them all, the V8!

oneredED · 12-01-2005, 07:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FFOracing

IRS was introduced in the VP Commodore, light years before Ford had even signed off on AU.

Didn't the VL HDT Director (or was it a special aero?) have IRS?

FNQracing · 12-01-2005, 07:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by oneredED

Didn't the VL HDT Director (or was it a special aero?) have IRS?

Yes, I beleive it did, although I'm sure it was an HDT only... It was a direct import from Opel. Still a first. Lovely car the Directors (for their day).

4.0i_SiX · 12-01-2005, 07:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FFOracing

I think you're being a little unfair on Holden. IRS was introduced in the VP Commodore, light years before Ford had even signed off on AU. Hell, Ford are still flogging the Watts Link rear end and leaf spring suspension in 2005, which borders on criminal.

I'm not sure about your comments on the failed Holden airbags, can;t say I'm aware of any major issues there.

To be fair, it has been Holden who have pioneered most of the new features to Aussie passenger cars, including ABS if I am not mistaken, and coil sprung rear suspension, which they introduced in 1972 (HQ). It took Ford another 10 years! (XE)...

However, when Ford do finally get around to doing it, they usually end up doing it better. Which is hardly suprising.

As a counter balance, Ford were the first with OHC and Fuel Injection, plastic fuel tanks and bumpers.

Oh, and how could I forget, they were the first with the mother of them all, the V8!

I hope by the V8 comment you meant, Ford was first to release it in Australia? they certainly didnt make the first ever V8..

The Commo's had a major recall on an Airbag fault, their IRS is a disaster and the HQ was a pig!

FNQracing · 12-01-2005, 07:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 4.0i_SiX

I hope by the V8 comment you meant, Ford was first to release it in Australia? they certainly didnt make the first ever V8..

The Commo's had a major recall on an Airbag fault, their IRS is a disaster and the HQ was a pig!

Yes, that's what I meant, Ford introduced the V8 to Australia.. BUT, although Ford did not invent the V8, Ford US were the first with a single-cast block V8 fitted to a passenger vechicle and they did popularise it.

I would not say IRS on the Commys was a complete disaster. Commodores have been out handling Falcons for years.

HQ was a pig (so was XA), UNTIL they tuned it for Radial tyres (RTS) which was well received in its day. The HQ's were around when cross-ply tyres were all the rage.

ilsautomotive · 12-01-2005, 07:53 PM

A few points to make.

I believe Chrysler had a local V8 before the XR Falcon.

Holden's firsts like driver's airbag, passenger airbag, side airbags, sat nav, traction control etc etc means one thing only: shame on Ford for consistently playing catch-up.

ABS was the one major feature Ford did introduce before Holden, 1992 versus 1993.

**gregaust** · 12-01-2005, 08:00 PM

The VX series 2 came with an extra link rod on the rear suspension to stop the negative camber.From what i've seen it works ok.

tickford2001 · 13-01-2005, 12:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gregaust

The VX series 2 came with an extra link rod on the rear suspension to stop the negative camber.From what i've seen it works ok.

yeh i was going to add this till i saw you had already!

it seems to have fixed the problem for the moment, and it was a problem, the pre VX commies were chewing out the insides of the rear rubber at a rediculous rate.

seano14 · 13-01-2005, 01:02 AM

hmm we have a VP commodore here which eats the inside of ALL it's tyres quicker. apparently there is some fault which they all share, and we cant do anything about it. so says the mechanic anyway. anyway the tyres are the last of it's problems so we're not terribly keen to pursue it :P

XR Martin · 13-01-2005, 02:00 AM

Early holden IRS also get stress fractures across the suspension rear 'frame' and eventually break. I dont think they fixed it till VT?

And Holdens have not been outhandling Fords for years, dont forget Ford has had a better front end since 1988. Read the reviews, the ED/EF/EL XRs all handled better than their equivalent IRS equipped Holdens. And I think the EB and EL GTs handled better than their equivalent HSVs too. Only real disadvantage the above cars had was mid corner bumps, and rough roads.

AUIII XR8 MAN · 13-01-2005, 04:07 AM

Falcon have been riding & cornering better than the Commodore for years. I have not found a Commodore than can stay with the Falcons when the roads start to get a few bends in it. I given a some Holden mates ride through some bendy bit only to have than comment they wish their Commodore could handle aswell. When I see Commodore with it rear wheels sitting like that it reminds me of the old 180B Datsan with the same problem.

XplosiveR6 · 13-01-2005, 08:08 AM

who cares which manufacturer was first to introduce a product, it means nothing, what matters is how good the product is. Any manufacturer can introduce new technology from foreign parts but how well it performs is the question.

ilsautomotive · 13-01-2005, 10:38 AM

EF_Dave, introducing new technology means raising the bar for Australian cars. An example right now is gas discharge headlights, which have never before been seen on a local model, even though they have been available on imports for close to a decade. If history is a guide, Holden will get around to installing them on some models, and Ford will follow suit with the next model, and until then we'll just be waiting and waiting. Pathetic.

And for those who don't know the story behind the VT's IRS, the VT was based on the '95 Opel Omega which was a mid-size sedan powered by a 3.0 V6 from memory. This featured the extra rod Holden later marketed as "control link" yet the larger, heavier and far more powerful VT Commodore models did not, not even the 250 kW Grange or Club Sport models. It did have mounting points for the extra rods.

The VT series II HSV GTS was the first with control link, and by now the rear inner tyre wear issue of regular VTs was all over the media as a huge annoyance to owners. When the VX was released, a Holden spokesperson publically denied there was any problem with the rear suspension. But when the VX series II came out, control link was being fitted to all models! What's more, they admitted that the original plan was to release control link with the VY!

A fool would call control link a classic case of technology filtering down from high horsepower HSV models down to everyday Executives, but the truth is that Holden stripped out an essential feature, bullshitted, and then praised itself for progressing the Commodore with the VX series II.

That's beyond pathetic.

**Raptor** · 13-01-2005, 11:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FFOracing

..... Commodores have been out handling Falcons for years......

Correction;

Commodores have been known to out-GRIP Falcons but at the expense of excessive tyre wear. Commodores DO NOT out handle Falcons!

Hey the V8 Supercars have negative camber so it must be good and the road going Commy too. Roight Maate! Fully Siiick.

:

Olympus · 13-01-2005, 11:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Trouty

And for those who don't know the story behind the VT's IRS, the VT was based on the '95 Opel Omega which was a mid-size sedan powered by a 3.0 V6 from memory. This featured the extra rod Holden later marketed as "control link" yet the larger, heavier and far more powerful VT Commodore models did not, not even the 250 kW Grange or Club Sport models. It did have mounting points for the extra rods.

Yup, you beat me to it Jack. The IRS comes from the Opel Omega, it think it's even the same IRS found in the Calibra.
Then again the whole VT concept was a rip-off off Opels Omega.

:
Wich is also an explanation for the fact you will never find one here in Australia.

Danny · 13-01-2005, 12:27 PM

They look like the same doorskins as the VT/VX/VY/VZ

Definitely the same body crease, doorhandles and centre window pillar......

XR_Strider_GuY · 13-01-2005, 01:13 PM

This has been an age old debate since the release of the VT and AU. I guess it's all about first impressions. Take a VT for a dealer spin compared to the AU and you find the VT impress's and feels complaint. Tyre wear, toe angles etc only shows up later.

Having said that, i believe the smoother the road the difference between IRS and liveaxle dimishes, however drive hard on an undulating and rough road and you feel the livaxled cars have to work harder to keep up the same pace.

MightyXR6Turbo · 13-01-2005, 05:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FFOracing

I think you're being a little unfair on Holden. IRS was introduced in the VP Commodore, light years before Ford had even signed off on AU. Hell, Ford are still flogging the Watts Link rear end and leaf spring suspension in 2005, which borders on criminal.

Holden use leaf spring suspension also in 2005 (read: Crewman and some utes). Also Watts Link isn't used on any Falcon models anymore, all non-leaf spring models have Control Blade IRS on them, even down to the pov-pack XT. Watts Link however is a far cry better than Panhard rod's used on the Commo's until IRS was made standard.

4.0i_SiX · 13-01-2005, 10:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Raptor

Correction;

Commodores have been known to out-GRIP Falcons but at the expense of excessive tyre wear. Commodores DO NOT out handle Falcons!

Hey the V8 Supercars have negative camber so it must be good and the road going Commy too. Roight Maate! Fully Siiick.

:

Yeah this is very true, they rely almost entirely on sticky rubber

needturbo6 · 14-01-2005, 12:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by XR6 Martin

Early holden IRS also get stress fractures across the suspension rear 'frame' and eventually break. I dont think they fixed it till VT?

yep i only just recently saw this at a mates work, it nearly completly cracked right around the rear subframe(?) had about 3mm of meta; holding it together on each side....

he said it a commom problem, this one had a few things done to it so it may be from a bit more power going through them.

ilsautomotive · 14-01-2005, 12:30 AM

The pre-VT K frames don't like hard launches. You'd probably find the manual ones would break more than auto ones.

460cixy · 14-01-2005, 12:43 AM

from what i have seen seen of the early commie irs is an almost exact copy of the late 60,s bmw irs witch datsun also copyed. i have owned both datto 180b and bmw 520 and had no problems with tire wear only on the datsun when it was lowerd. negitive camber is great for handleing. but a generic fault with the bmw/datto/holden irs is if you back off the power mid courner in a panic that negitive camber soon turns to positive camber . and can be very un predictable . any one thats had an old datto/bmw/ even a beatle has probly experianced this. im not 100% but im sure but i read an iame magazine before the au was releasd that said the ford irs was fully ajustable and used a true upper and lower control arm arangement. where the holden uses the trailing arm arangement.